When we talk about the future of mezcal, the conversation tends to revolve around our fears of agave extinction. But there’s so much more to speculate on! That’s what we do in this episode. What will production look like? How will it be delivered? And what are the delicious innovations we should expect? All this and more in the Mezcal 2099 episode of Agave Road Trip! (And, yes, we tried to get Future Chava to participate. But he kept muttering about something called a Flash Point and stepping on a butterfly, so in the end he sent us a picture of what he is drinking in the future … and would not tell us if that was new-to-him juice or something he found in Lou’s Future Basement Museum.)

This episode of Agave Road Trip is brought to you by Mezcal Amarás. Mezcal Amarás is a company built through love: love for the sun, the land, and the people who work it, and most of all, love for Mexico and its sacred plant, the agave. Learn more at mezcalamaras.com

Agave Road Trip is a podcast that helps gringo bartenders better understand agave, agave spirits, and rural Mexico. It’s hosted by Lou Bank and Chava Periban. 

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Episode transcript

Lou Bank (00:00):

This episode of Agave Road Trip is brought to you by Mezcal Amarás. Mezcal Amarás is a company built through love: love for the sun, the land, and the people who work it, and most of all, love for Mexico and its sacred plant, the agave. Learn more at mezcalamaras.com, but for now, strap yourself in for another episode of Agave Road Trip!

Lou Bank (00:32):

I am Lou Bank.

Chava Periban (00:34):

and I am Chava Periban.

Lou Bank (00:35):

And this is Agave Road Trip, the podcast that helps gringo bartenders better understand agave, agave spirits, and rural Mexico.

Chava Periban (00:43):

Lou, I was thinking, in our last episode, we were just talking about the skills development of a lot of the children that are now learning how to make agave spirits. And I couldn't help but think about how this is all going to look in the future. How do you imagine your futuristic mezcal and, by futuristic, I think you and I agree that we're not imagining more stainless steel applications or computers. We're thinking about something that usually people do not put in their minds when they think about futuristic stuff.

Lou Bank (01:12):

Well, you know, I actually think of all of that. Like, I absolutely think that we're going to see a lot more of these super-industrial distilleries making mezcal. Absolutely, without question, that is part of the future. I also would like to imagine that I'll be able to order things from rural Mexico and they will be lifted up by a tiny little bot that will fly all the way from, let's say, Durango, and just deliver me the bottle that I want at the moment. But I think the more relevant point, the one that you're actually trying to get to is what does the world look like in these rural communities, um, with these families? Yes?

Chava Periban (01:54):

Yes. And also, innovations-wise or changes-wise, which are going to be the really important ones to make flavors that are going to blow our minds in 50 or 60 years. What are the things, if we take beauty and deliciousness as our criteria, which are going to be the innovations that might do more delicious, different, uh, agave spirits?

Lou Bank (02:19):

God. Yeah, it's funny. So, okay. So I'm going to go down that path, but then I'm going to drag you down the path I want to go on. But first, you know, so when I was down in Oaxaca like a year and a half, two years ago, some friends took me to meet Aniceto Garcia in Miahuatlan and he was doing something — and he's not a young cat, right? He's got great grandchildren. But he was using the pencas — the leaves — in order to distill. He was fermenting and distilling the leaves of the agave, even though you always hear it's just the heart that's used to make spirits. And here's an old guy who found a new trick. And I think that he found it because he was running out of agave — he had to use every sugar source he could find. And that left him with pencas. That left him with leaves.

Chava Periban (03:13):

Yes. And I also think that — and you were saying this in the last episode — that usually you prefer the spirits that are made by the son of the master distillers or the palenqueros, that you really admire. And I think that a lot of that has to do with that these kids, their palate, their interests, their connection to the world is extremely different to their parents. And I think like I can relate to that in many ways, like my dad cannot turn on a computer. There's so many things that I cannot talk about with my dad, even from an aesthetic point or perspective, because he just didn't grow around that — his childhood experience was so different. So you have all these kids that have a different appreciation of the world and therefore a different palate and a different understanding of what might taste good or not. And let's just say they have different imaginations and they will apply their imaginations in different ways while making their spirits,

Lou Bank (04:09):

Oh God, that's such a ... it's like, it's a taffy pool that you're talking about. Right? It's accurate to say that we want to protect the cultural heritage as though it's our culture to protect. And it's not. (That's sarcasm, for anybody who doesn't get sarcasm without a little smiley face after it.) But at what point does the innovation actually turn away from the cultural heritage?

Chava Periban (04:37):

I'll make an example of this that I've been thinking for a while. Don't steal this idea from me, you know? But I think it's like something super basic in, say, clay distillation, right? A lot of the ceramicists in Oaxaca have been evolving their techniques drastically in the last 20 years, 15 years. They have better kilns. They understand better how to mix their own clays. They understand better even glazes. So I imagine that if some mezcal producer were to see that development and do custom formulations in the body, in even the clay type, or in the glazes that you can use for the still, you can come up with very different flavor profiles. And I'm not saying stop following heritage, I'm saying take advantage of the innovations that are happening in the crafts that are around mezcal.

Lou Bank (05:31):

It's an interesting way to put that. And I think the relevance that I find in that statement is ... I'm not even sure that I would call it innovations so much as a better understanding of the process, right? Like, if you're learning how to better make clay pots, and you understand that, when you heat the clay pot, and the alcohol inside is forced out in a different way, that you get a different result, like, is that innovation? Or is that just the honing of technique over multiple generations?

Chava Periban (06:09):

I call it innovation. I mean, I know — and this is so irritating for me because innovation is usually reserved for the Silicon Valley-looking things. And I think that's one of the biggest thefts that that context has made to human intelligence. So suddenly all that better understanding of techniques cannot use these words that are reserved for higher technology. And I think that's very unfair. Like I said, it's a very

Lou Bank (06:36):

Well, I don't think there's fair and unfair. I think there's just reality, but I think, to your point, there's no reason that you can't better understand and therefore better utilize the tools that we've been using — that they've been using — for hundreds of years. You don't have to move away from the integration of the tool and your five senses and your human skills. There you go. I think that's the relevant point for me is once you replace the humanity, once you replace the human skills with the tool, I think that's where you start to depart from tradition.

Chava Periban (07:17):

Hmm. I think that's interesting. And I think we are extremely complex machinery. We humans, right? And our perceptions are an extremely complex machinery. And I think, yes, the moment where the imagination of a maker is detached from the product ... that your imagination, your senses, your understanding cannot be applied to make decisions on the product, that you're basically obeying the tool and the limitations of the tool to make all your decisions? I think that's computers, you know? And they have extremely strict boundaries. And I think what's really interesting about the craft context generally and agave spirits in particular is the borders between the human interaction and breaking a lot of the rules that were established before you got there ... it's a little more fluid than in heavier technology. It's harder to change very technologically intensive processes.

Lou Bank (08:22):

Oh, interesting. You know, I'll tell you for me, I don't get nearly as excited — I don't get excited at all — thinking about what I'm going to be drinking in the future, if I'm honest. I really don't. Like, I want to protect these communities who are making things in this way. And that's the delicious stuff that I enjoy drinking, but honestly, if they followed a path that took them away from making these spirits, right? If It took them instead in a path that, uh, helped figure out better solutions to water insecurity and food insecurity and climate change, I'd be just as happy. I mean, don't get me wrong. I like drinking, but I, you know, I think there are far more important applications of this multi-generational wisdom than just how to make more delicious spirits. I think that you end up losing the value when you think about it in such a small way as how can you make more delicious booze.

Chava Periban (09:28):

Yes. But I think, I mean, I understand why you would say that, because it feels very indulgent. Like, I just want to have some delicious stuff, but I think they might be connected. I think that a community that has the capacity and the pride on making some really delicious spirits can also have the will and the tools to have a better social structure. I'm saying like a very, I guess, risky argument here. But I think if you have a community of people that are very happy and proud of what they do, you have a community that can unite to do more relevant stuff, like water security and environmental change.

Lou Bank (10:05):

Yeah. No, I'd agree. A hundred percent. I think the bigger question kind of goes back to what you were saying about technology, about "stealing" the idea of, uh, ... how'd you phrase it? Advancement?

Chava Periban (10:20):

Yeah. Like Silicon Valley and those guys have said that their technology or their technological innovations are the only way to advance humanity for progress, let's say.

Lou Bank (10:30):

Right. Right, right. So how do you get the world —and maybe this pandemic that has kept us separated is the answer, but — how do you get the world to sit up and take notice that these communities are doing more than just making amazing spirits by using these ancient techniques? That by using their five senses and the skills that they've developed over multiple generations, they've also developed solutions to problems that we're still struggling with in the "developed world."

Chava Periban (11:02):

Exactly. And I think that that's why I'm so excited about the future of agave spirits, I really, really, really want to see ... if we're lucky, and if we have more people that love the things that we love, and a lot of the heritage is kept, I think that in a hundred years, agave spirits are going to be coming out of there that could not only be delicious, but could also have great impact in the communities where they're made

Lou Bank (11:26):

And we can also maybe have a Twinkie Pechuga at that point.

Chava Periban (11:29):

Uh, no.

Lou Bank (11:32):

Okay. And I think we're going to call that a wrap, unless you've got something funnier to end with than Twinkie Pechgua.

Chava Periban (11:37):

No, I'm very happy with this. Okay.

Lou Bank (11:52):

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