Another Freaking Gringo Looking for Jabali…
For hundreds of years, mezcaleros believed that you could not use maguey jabali (agave convallis) to make spirits — it foams so much, both during fermentation and distillation, that it was thought unmanageable. It was, in fact, often used to make soap. But a couple decades ago, someone found a strategy to manage the foaming. Now gringos go crazy looking for the rare, wild destilado de jabali! In this episode of Agave Road Trip, we speak with maestro Felix Angeles about his jabali strategy.
This episode of Agave Road Trip is brought to you by Flask Fine Wines. Flask Fine Wines offers nationwide shipping of fine wines and spirits, including vintage spirits and heritage agave spirits. Learn more, and get your next bottle, at flaskfinewines.com
Agave Road Trip is a podcast that helps gringo bartenders better understand agave, agave spirits, and rural Mexico. It’s hosted by Lou Bank and Chava Periban.
Our guest this episode is Felix Angeles from Santa Catarina Minas, Oaxaca. He speaks with us about the trouble he goes through to make spirits from maguey jabali.
You can also find Felix’s agave spirits in the USA. One of the brands bringing his pechuga up north is Pescador de Sueños Pechuga.
Chava and I both refer in this episode to “roasting” the agave. But I’m pretty sure we discuss in an earlier episode the fact that the agave is not roasting. It’s cooking, sure, but roasting is a specific kind of cooking. If you find that episode, point me to it and I’ll add the link here. In the meantime…
Episode transcript
Lou Bank (00:00):
This episode of Agave Road Trip is brought to you by FlaskFineWines.com. Now, you might think from that name -- FlaskFineWines.com — that they sell fine wines, and they certainly do, but they also have a selection of uncertified heritage agave spirits. You know, the stuff we talk about almost every episode. If You live somewhere where it's tough to find mezcal, let alone uncertified agave spirits stick around after this episode to find out how FlaskFineWines.com can help you get the good stuff. But for now, strap yourself in for another episode of Agave Road Trip!
Lou Bank (00:34):
I am Lou Bank.
Chava Periban (00:34):
I am Chava Periban.
Lou Bank (00:50):
This is agave road trip, the podcast that helps gringo bartenders better understand agave, agave spirits, and rural Mexico. And today, Chava, I want to jump deeper into the 400 decisions that mezcaleros make during the process of creating these beautiful spirits.
Chava Periban (01:10):
And this is quite a specific one, but, uh, I think we agree that in very mysterious ways, it has a great effect on the final product and it's just basically that moment between you roasted your agave, you're about to mill it and what happens in between, right?
Lou Bank (01:29):
Yeah. That's just ... you use the word moment. And certainly if we're talking about the evolution of the human species or the evolution of the world itself, then we are talking a moment, but sometimes that moment will be a month or more.
Chava Periban (01:46):
We're talking about the human evolution might be 2000 years, but, uh,
Lou Bank (01:52):
But right. Well, that's what I'm saying. It's all perspective. So I guess you could say a moment, but really, to me, the fascinating part is, sometimes you don't even pull the agave out of the oven, right? So Del Maguey has this tobala expression that fascinates me -- the mezcalero leaves the tobala in the horno — in the oven — underground for 30 days after putting it in. Thirty days!
Chava Periban (02:19):
Yes. And then we asked about that to Felix Angeles and he was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That is horrific. The smell that is going to come out of that, it's going to be terrible. But then again, like whose nose are we to trust, either that Del Maguey producer or Felix.
Lou Bank (02:37):
Yeah, you know, this is something that we see a lot, right? When we travel around rural Mexico, it's, "This person's doing that? That's wrong. This is the right way." Because then Felix does something that nobody else we've talked to has done, which is that he'll also let the cooked agave sit for 30 days, but above ground,
Chava Periban (02:54):
Right, but not every type of agave. We were very specifically speaking with Felix about the jabali -- the jabali is this legendary agave that for decades, hundreds of years, people thought you could not use it to make spirits because it foams so much when you're fermenting, when you're distilling it foams, which is mutant behavior by all means. Every time we ask any producer about jabali, they will always shrug. They're like, "Oh, another fricking gringo that is looking for the jabali." It has become this treasure hunt where everybody really wants the jabali. And other producers are, like, "It has the worst efficiency ever. It's a pain to mill. It's a pain to work with. And the foam is just like ... when we were in the Mixteca Alta, Jesus Franco told us that once they were carrying the freshly harvested jabali in the truck, it started raining, and the agave started foaming inside the pickup. And they're like, we hadn't even started to work. It was really making a mess. Oh, it's the rabid agave.
Lou Bank (04:07):
So Felix, when we brought this to him, what he said was to mitigate that foaming, he will leave the agave out -- just the jabali — leave that out for 30 days after roasting and before milling. And he said that helps to reduce the foam both during fermentation and distillation.
Chava Periban (04:28):
Let's listen to him say this. And then I have so many questions about this because it just really blows my mind from a science perspective. So we hear Felix Angeles in Santa Catarina Minas talking a little bit more in detail about the jabali.
Felix Angeles (04:47):
Agave jabali needs to stay above ground for at least 25 to 30 days. Because if you cook it and then try to mill it the next day, you won't get any mezcal from it. There are many agaves that behave like that. And if you don't know their waste, you'll just end up ruining them. The jabali foam will always be there regardless if the agave's sweet or not. When distilling it, depending on how intense the fire under the still is, it will foam up. The bigger the fire, the more foam you get. That is why jabali prefers to be distilled with a very gentle flame.
Lou Bank (05:19):
Okay. So, you know, there you go. Like, it's amazing the particulars of how somebody goes about doing the things that he does and in this case, I think specifically when you're talking about Felix's process, I get the sense that this is something he figured out, not something that he learned from his father.
Chava Periban (05:43):
Oof. I know too, because also, as I was saying, one of my biggest questions is how did they figure out that leaving the agave above ground for 30 days was not only going to mitigate the foam, but also it was going to give them better yields. Because what he said is that a lot of the beginners, they buy this type of agave because it's fashionable right now and people are looking for it, but then they have yields that are completely absurd. And when I say absurd, they can use an actual ton of agave and only get two liters out of it. Which is just economically crazy. So I don't know, Lou, like how ... okay, here are my questions and then I'll share one of your questions, which is, how did they figure this out? And I really do not understand what is the effect of leaving it outside. I guess, like, you'll have some microbial, dry-fermentation action, but I do not understand why would that give you better yields and why would that reduce foaming?
Lou Bank (06:45):
Well, you know, so I'm not certain that it would actually give better yields. I suspect — and this is just a theory, right? I think there's a bacteria that's going in and eating some of that enzyme that creates the foam. This is just my theory, as a scientist, that you've got this bacteria that's eating up the saponins and that's mitigating the foam. And then I would suggest that you're getting the higher yield because before he did this, before he mitigated the foam, you literally were losing the sugars and the alcohols during the foaming — that literally it was blowing out of the container. So it's not actually better yields. It's just, you're keeping more of it in the ferment. And then in the distillation, that's my theory.
Chava Periban (07:40):
This is the first time that I'm going to take my hat off and give you the science hat for the day.
Lou Bank (07:47):
I'll tell you, you know, I may not be the most scientifically studied person, but I think I actually do approach the world in a scientific way. I have a lot of questions, I think it's my Jewish heritage. I have a lot of questions and I'm willing to keep asking those questions until I get an answer that seems plausible. And I think that's sort of what you have to do when you're traveling to these communities, because the lack of communication — not only from one community to the next, but literally from one mezcalero to the next within the same community can be non-existent.
Chava Periban (08:26):
Absolutely. And they're always calculating, right? All of them, they think you're asking questions because you might try to negotiate a better price later. They're like, why are you asking those questions? So I don't think it's only that everything's communicated through oral history. That's part of it, so of course there are asymmetric versions of stuff, but also I think they're very careful, you know, they're really always calculating, like, who's this guy and why 's he asking this and who's he going to talk to afterwards.
Lou Bank (08:56):
And to your point, that's also, I think how they approach this entire process. It's not so different, I think, from how I approach the world. When I say that I'm not a studied scientist, I think most of these men and women are also not studied scientists, but they learn from their experience. And so they've learned from experience that they have to be cautious about what information they give out and what it's going to be used for. And they've learned from experience that if they pay attention to the details of things, they might actually find a better route to the end result they're looking for. So, you know, the question is, how does a Felix Angeles figure out that he leaves this jabali out for 30 days and he gets this better result — less foam and greater yield. And I think the answer is by trying, you just keep trying stuff, it's sort of how a kid learns to play a video game. You just keep hitting buttons until you finally find the right combination. And I think these men and women are just significantly more patient about these processes to do that. But then also, you know, the other side of it is they have these incredible palates that would make any of them world-class chefs, if that was the path they chose, because they have this palate memory that allows them to do these things, wait 30 days, and then find out the result. And then they remember that that was the thing they did that gave them that palate result in their production
Chava Periban (10:33):
And also to cross-analyze — because they know that what they did in fermentation is being affected by distillation — and that's really hard, you know, to notice some deficiency that took place back in the process is now making these other actions further away. And the other thing too, and just talking more about this capacity of their palates, is dry fermentation exists in almost every town that I've ever visited. And there's always the situation where it's like, how much mold would they allow there to be? There's people that hate the mold. We know producers that will never allow for mold to form. And then there's others that actually like it pretty heavy on the moldy side, even if it's not to reduce foam, or even if it doesn't have a practical application, just a flavor profile that comes out of the longer dry fermentation is more pleasing for them. So—
Lou Bank (11:35):
And it will just be for specific agaves, like you go to Victor Ramos's place and Victor will do it with this karwinskii, but not that karwinskii, it's not even like every one from that species is going to have the same treatment. And like, again, that speaks to me to that palate that is just so remarkable. And again, to like pull back to that 30,000-foot view, it speaks to those 400 decisions they make during that entire process that creates these spirits that are so unique from batch to batch and yet so delicious in different ways from batch to batch to batch.
Chava Periban (12:14):
Yes. And if we ever do a tasting about this, I would love to have that: something that has been dry fermented for 10 days, 15 days, 20 days, 25, and just try the four or five different options.
Lou Bank (12:26):
Oh, god, wow. Once this pandemic is over that, you know, that's one of the things that we're gonna do. The first thing that we're going to do is ask a mezcalero to put that kind of side-by-side tasting together for us.
Chava Periban (12:35):
So excited. Please, virus, die right away. The fastest you can.
Lou Bank (12:41):
Okay. Let's wrap this one up, Chava. I think we've covered it as much as possible. And, uh, let's look forward to the next episode.
Chava Periban (12:58):
Hey, Lou, what is it that you're drinking today?
Lou Bank (13:02):
It's a tobala, made in 2015 by Victor Ramos, Chava. It's delicious.
Chava Periban (13:07):
Wow. This is strange. You don't normally drink while we're recording. What's up, Lou?
Lou Bank (13:11):
What's up is we're recording an ad for FlaskFineWines.com, the sponsor of this episode. And we're very specifically recording an ad highlighting the fact that FlaskFineWines.com will ship heritage agave spirits — meaning the stuff that's not certified — anywhere in the USA so I thought it called for a bit of the good stuff.
Chava Periban (13:34):
But I thought you only had good stuff at your place.
Lou Bank (13:38):
That's true. I like it, therefore, it's the good stuff. And the stuff I tend to like most is the stuff that is made in super small batches of fewer than 240 liters, then bottled in the exact same form in which it is consumed in the community where it's made, not changing anything to meet the standards of the bodies that certify mezcal, tequila, or the other DOs.,
Chava Periban (13:58):
None that there's anything wrong with all that, right?
Lou Bank (14:01):
Not that there's anything wrong with that, right.
Chava Periban (14:03):
But people should get to taste those uncertified spirits to see if maybe that is what they really, really like, no?
Lou Bank (14:10):
Exactly, Chava, but if you're outside of a handful of major cities in the USA, it can be hard to find certified mezcal let alone the small-releases that aren't certified. That's where FlaskFineWines.com comes in.
Chava Periban (14:23):
FlaskFineWines.com has a selection of heritage agave spirits released by some of our favorite brands. Like Mal Bien, Cinco Sentidos, and Mezonte, to just name a few.
Lou Bank (14:32):
Yeah. And also Lalocura, La Venenosa, and Amormata, as well as a super-wide selection of our favorite certified mezcal brands.
Chava Periban (14:42):
And they'll ship anywhere in the USA, right?
Lou Bank (14:45):
Right you are, Chava. So if you're one of those folks looking for heritage agave spirits, or mezcal, or really any specific alcohol, check out FlaskFineWines.com FlaskFineWines.com offers nationwide shipping of fine wines and spirits within the USA. And they're a sponsor of Agave Road Trip.
Chava Periban (15:05):
Thanks a lot, FlaskFineWines.com.
